he started the armed wing of the anc. >> right. started as a fighter. i think it magnifies the importance of the message which is why i wanted you to give us perspective on it, rick, because if you believe he is someone who is just better than we are, you know, he just didn't feel the anger and hostility and bitterness that i would, or you would, then that's one type of person, but when you know he did feel every bit as much, he had that fierceness in him, it's what he did with it, i think it magnifies the message. >> absolutely. one of the things i've written about is this sense of fear. there were so many times we were talking and he would say to me "i was terrified. i was afraid." here is nelson mandela telling me he was afraid, terrified. he once said to me "it would be irrational not to have been terrified." i was on a plane ride with him once, one of the engines went out and i was a little nervous about it, and i looked at him, and he just was reading the newspaper like nothing happened and when we got on the ground about a half an hour later he s